Submitted by gisette on Sat, 11/01/2008 - 23:56
YAY! Evergreen Seeds finally shipped my new weird greens seeds! I hope everyone was alright there - I ordered Oct 15, but they went on a two-week shipping hiatus. 
Getting rather a lot of oriental greens seeds, because they had a minimum order size, and cheap seeds:
- Asia red amaranth
- tender leaf green amaranth
- hybrid senposai (hybrid of cabbage and komatsuna!)
- kojisan komatsuna
- Korean red curl lettuce
- hybrid bimitas lettuce
- Chinese fragrant choi lettuce
DrAnn turned me onto these (I'd been looking for komatsuna - one of the odd greens I really loved from the mesclun kit - and got really interested in her amaranth). Her outrider system for growing greens was what decided me on getting a Deluxe instead of a 400W grow light array next. I want to try starting these in AG or Park Starts and grow them in hydroton rock hand-powered-ebb-and-flow containers, in the Deluxe's spillover light.
And they come soon now - yay! Now need to decide which to grow first. 
(1 vote)
Sun, 11/09/2008 - 13:06
#2
Week 1: Coming along nicely. Seedlings germinated nicely alongside the pro100. Still too small yet for stronger nutrients or moving to individual pots yet, I think. Only the fragrant choi (lettuce) has visible roots yet coming out the bottom of its sponge. So it'll probably be the first to move. But no need to move any before first true leaves, I think.
Since the labels are cryptic - this is, from left to right, red amaranth, fragrant choi, senposai komatsuna, kojisan komatsuna (same order as the seed pix upstream). I put about 4-5 seeds in each pod. Not sure why so few of the komatsuna sprouted. I've been draining and refilling the container most days at least once (lift upper container to drain, then plonk back in lower container to sink & refill). But there's not much need at this stage - only the bottom of the pods reach the liquid, so the baby roots get plenty of air.
Mon, 11/10/2008 - 16:23
#3
This is a great little experiment, using the hydroton rocks.
Everything looks good, you are even keeping that essential air gap. Watch out for algae growth though, is that container light proof underneath and at the sides? Algae, being a form of plant life, loves to grow in your nutrients when exposed to light, it will not grow in dark conditions.
The algae will use up your nutrients, it will bloom and decompose. When it decomposes it releases toxins into your water, these provide a food source for pathogens, fungi...
Not wishing to scare you though. 
Mon, 11/10/2008 - 16:35
#4
Looking good, and these are just laying around your AGs, huh? Nice, Maere's ready for lettuce so guess it's time to get some going around the AGs and maybe in the tent, how much temp can lettuce take without bolting?
Mon, 11/10/2008 - 20:26
#5
is that container light proof underneath and at the sides?
Well, you can kinda see in one of the top pictures. The inner container is frosty translucent white, so you can see roots and rocks fairly well through it. The outer container is yellow frosty translucent. Both together, you can't see through very well, and only dim yellow light would get through. This is only a cradle arrangement, though, til the seedlings get big enough to put in separate containers (might put two in one...) Drann seemed to think it important to be able to see through enough to see the roots and water levels, and then darken the outside. When I move them to their own containers, they'll also have rocks up higher (though not the liquid level), to cut down on light. For now I want to be able to inspect / remove them easily.
But yeah, I got that part. Cut light, cut algae. 
Mon, 11/10/2008 - 20:38
#6
Looking good, and these are just laying around your AGs, huh? Nice, Maere's ready for lettuce so guess it's time to get some going around the AGs and maybe in the tent, how much temp can lettuce take without bolting?
Yeah, just sitting next to an AG. I grow seedlings in Park Starts blocks that way all the time. Haven't seen how well the whole plant grows under those conditions yet... But that's one of the growing-lettuce-in-summer strategies, to grow cucumbers on a lattice above, and lettuce in the shade below. I imagine they grow slower that way, but they seem to not be terribly light-demanding. Anyway, Drann says she's done it, and I wanted to try reproducing this. Because I want to grow lettuce and ornamentals all the time, but also want to try other things... Like peppers, eggplant, and tomatoes.
I grow lettuce in my kitchen, which is frequently up to 75-80 degrees. The lettuce grows. It just won't last long - maybe 2 months before it's too gangly to bother with anymore. Lettuce heaven is more like 60-70 degrees. Then, it'll stay productive... 3 months? Maybe a bit more. Depends too on the variety of lettuce. Romaines (cos) supposedly do better, and all the lettuces in this bunch of seeds were "all year mild climate" types, and I have a "heatwave" collection (that doesn't stand up to summer, but handles 70-80 degrees for a while.)
If you send me your snailmail address, I could mail you some "heat" lettuce seeds to try - your pick of the above, or this one. The latter I've tried - they're good.
Wed, 11/12/2008 - 18:57
#7
Peat's point was well taken... Moved a very long digression to topic But We Digress...
Please note that moving comments involves me hand-editing the database. Try not to digress...
Fri, 11/14/2008 - 18:22
#8
Week 2 (almost): decided it was time to move the fragrant choi and komatsuna to their growing containers. Actually, the senposai komatsuna isn't quite developed enough yet (true leaves barely there, roots not out of the sponge yet), but I wanted to put it in the same container with the kojisan komatsuna - close enough. The kojisan and fragrant choi have persuasive true leaves and roots coming out of their sponges.
The original intention was to grow these as outriders to my Aerogarden Deluxe, currently growing mini bell peppers. But... that spot by the bedroom slider, with winter coming on, is chilly. I had been growing a spare pepper plant there, but it was dropping its flowers on cold nights, and I know from seedling starting last spring - it's often below 65 (or below 60...) under that window. That part of my bedroom juts out above another balcony, and the window's none too well insulated. Brrrrr. So, the potted pepper is taking up a lot of the Deluxe's spillover light space now. And komatsuna and lettuce should be perfectly happy with a low-lit cool spot.
The weak sunlight is augmented by a $10 Walmart grow lamp, attached to the window with suction cups and hooks. They also sit in a bit of reflective blanket draping, to bounce light back onto them.
The nutrient broth is the same General Hydroponics lettuce mix worked out from BB and Peat - 6.3 ml hardwater micro, 10.6 ml grow, 2.1 ml bloom, in 1 gallon water, half and half Brita-filtered tap water and distilled.
I've had a terrible time growing brassicas (komatsuna is a brassica, like mustard, and almost all the "baby greens") with Aerogarden kits. But in my current mini greens garden, the mustard - which was stark yellow and dying on AG salad nutes - has turned lush and green, and even the stray komatsuna in a mesclun kit pod in the pro100 is growing happily. So I think they'll like this mix. The komatsuna got transferred to a full mix a little early, but it's been my experience that lettuce needs to move from "starter" to "growing" nutrients at about 1.5 weeks from seed, not the 2 weeks the AG kits go by - it gets very yellow the last few days of that regime. (Note how yellow the fragrant choi is, compared to the komatsuna, above.)
I've never grown amaranth before. No idea whether it's struggling or just slow. Looks OK.
Sat, 11/15/2008 - 04:41
#9
Gisette, now you are doing this method of growing - you may not realize this, but you have opened yourself up to a different world of hydro... subterranean growing...
You can grow such things as carrots etc using what you are doing with your containers, albeit using perlite instead.
If you are interested I will go into it further. 
Sat, 11/15/2008 - 11:46
#10
Huh! That is interesting, Peat! I probably wouldn't grow any root vegetables (they are cheap), but sure, if you'd want to start another topic on how. For now, I'd just like to secure an external salad supply to release an AG to grow other things.
Sat, 11/15/2008 - 19:24
#11
Peat... may I ask a dumb question?
I've been assuming that I want the nutrient levels in these things to reach up to at least the base of the spongipod. And that draining them and letting them fill again twice a day, is to keep the nutrient solution and hydroton grow rocks oxygenated. But in your subterranean hydroponics article, you described perlite wicking up the nutrient solution.
I can't picture these pea- to marble-sized clay balls wicking anything. Though I supposed they might hold onto moisture for 12-18 hours after a dunking. Some moisture, anyway...
But I keep them flooded, and just aerate them twice a day. Right?
Sun, 11/16/2008 - 12:22
#12
You still need to flood your hydroton rocks, they hold water but only for so long before they dry out. When you flood it adds oxygen and allows the rocks to absorb the nutrients, just like you said. When the rocks start drying out, they actually start pulling more air in.
In my subterranean article, you still need to flood the perlite/vermiculite, exactly like you do with the rocks. These materials, like your hydroton, can only hold water for so long as well. Perlite does wick water, but there is still a need to give a flood to it. Hydroton won't wick.
On your system - there are two ways of doing this...
The way you are doing at the moment, which is keeping the water at the bottom third of the pods - the pods can then absorb the water directly, and then flooding from above to flush oxygen through and aerate the liquid.
The other way is the true ebb and flow way. Your pods do not sit in a quantity of water, the water is in a container way below their level. What usually happens is that the container floods upwards to your pods and then sinks back down again - this sucks in vast quantities of air. You cannot do this with your method so the only way is to flood from the top down.
They both will work, if you are getting good growth using your method then stay as you are.
Sun, 11/16/2008 - 13:01
#13
Peat - Not sure I understand. My pods are sitting in nutrients - the nutrient solution comes up to the bottom 1/3 of the sponges, like you say. I never flood them from the top. I punched holes in the bottoms. So a couple times a day I lift the top nestled container, and all the liquid drains down into the bottom nestled container, splashing nicely to help the liquid oxygenate. And of course the rocks and roots get some air. Then I drop the top container back on the bottom one, and it sinks back to its previous level. If I understand correctly, this is ebb&flood, but with 99% of the time in flood stage.
It's only been 2 days. The komatsuna and lettuce seem happy enough. The amaranth is not growing as one would expect a weed species to grow... But Janet Ann (drann) never said she grew the plants from seed this way - she grew them in the AG, started cuttings from them in the AG, and then moved the established cuttings to the outriders. Which seemed unnecessarily convoluted. (I don't think the outriders were Janet Ann's original intent, it just evolved that way. Since it was my original intent, I went about it more directly.)
Sun, 11/16/2008 - 13:22
#14
Sorry, that's my mix-up. I see what you are doing now, same as drann - which I read about on her site, and then promptly forgot; doh!
What you are doing is just fine, ebb and flow on the cheap. It's a nice idea and great way of doing this.
Sun, 11/16/2008 - 14:52
#15
Thanks!
Lot of manual intervention, but I end up fiddling with plants every day, anyway... And they probably wouldn't die of a few days not-ebbed now and then, if we went away.
Sun, 11/16/2008 - 15:20
#16
Week 2: A couple days after moving to their new digs, the komatsuna and fragrant choi seem happy enough, and bigger. Enriched nutrients on Asia red amaranth and moved to a warmer spot. As weed species go, I'm so not impressed by its growth so far. May have to call this one a dud.
Mon, 11/17/2008 - 19:59
#17
Week 2: plus a day. My Asia Red Amaranth still looks exactly like it did three days ago - a seedling, failing to proceed to true leaves. Dud, it is. I didn't throw it out yet, but I don't think it's going to succeed. Assuming the problem is this system and 'amaranth', I'm not going to try the green amaranth this way, either. Washed the growrocks & nested containers (just detergent & chlorinated tap water), and planted my other two oriental lettuce seeds from this batch: Korean red curl and hybrid bimitas:
Evergreen Seeds' website is closed - no further orders. 
I hope no one is ill...
Anyway, week 0 on the new greens, starting in Peat's stronger seedling nutrient mix. Wish me luck... If BB & Maere grow the red curl too, it'll be fun to see how this outrider-growing compares with whatever he rigs up to grow them.
Tue, 11/18/2008 - 18:32
#18
If BB & Maere grow the red curl too, it'll be fun to see how this outrider-growing compares with whatever he rigs up to grow them.
How many seeds are you planting per pod? Looks like I've got about a dozen seeds and could start some in Rapid Rooters around the AGs tonight and transplant them into the grow tent if conditions are right.
My free replacement pump and MG kit finally came today, about three months from when they said they'd send them. I'm guessing the MG kit has the new peat pods but haven't opened it yet. Guess I should and put the tabs in the freezer with the other zillion I have and see what the new pods look like. Their customer service is great but delivery sucks.
You think Evergreen Seeds has gone belly up? That would be a bummer.
Tue, 11/18/2008 - 19:02
#19
I used 7 seeds per pod. The AG salad kits seem to run about 10. For the amaranth and komatsuna, I pared that down to 4-5 seeds, and only 2 sprouted for the komatsuna... These pods were the new peat-type MG that came with the Deluxe. This second round, I snipped across the top to make a trench instead of a hole, since I wasn't happy so few komatsuna sprouted - wanted to array them along the slit to hopefully get more sprouting.
I dunno how many can really grow in one pod, though. Seems quite a few in the AG, but kinda dependent on shape of greens plant.
I should try that freeze-the-nute-tabs trick... They definitely just turn to mush in my garage.
EvergreenSeeds just says, "This site is temporarily closed - no orders taken, no shipping available." My order got held up for 2+ weeks because no shipping was happening. Perhaps their shipping (person) still isn't working, and they got too much hassle from people for taking orders and not shipping? Sound familiar?
Wed, 11/19/2008 - 00:18
#20
Yep, sounds all too familiar unfortunately but at least they tell you about it.
That many in one pod, huh? Wow, do they like to be crowded or would they do better spaced out a little? And how deep, 1/4" or so? I did get the peat pods in the new MG kit so have bunches of sponges and peat pods but a rapid rooter or two would give me lots more space, which do you think would be better?
Wed, 11/19/2008 - 00:32
#21
1/8-1/4" for all lettuces, 1/2" for toy choi.
Spacing is better. But the tops of the plugs do grow algae pretty quickly, so the plant-in-a-line makes it a little easier to cut light to the plug.
I don't usually thin the lettuce in the AG pods - the instructions don't say to. In practice, the suppressed ones go gangly, and after a while, I eat them. Which is pretty much what you do growing lettuce outside - let them grow a bit and then pluck some to eat to let the others grow.
Wed, 11/19/2008 - 13:02
#22
I'll try to get a little of each going this afternoon. It's being a busy day...
Wed, 11/19/2008 - 16:41
#23
Got them going in a couple of rapid rooters at 15:00 today around the AGs. Planted six red curl about 1/8" deep on the left and four choi 1/2" deep on the right, spaced in slits. Mixed up a quart of starter mix using 0.3ml of micro, gro and bloom then had to add 6 drops of PHdown to get 6.0. Truncheon showed 0.7 so I think that's close enough. Here's a pic, got the date order mixed up but it's fixed for later.
Wed, 11/19/2008 - 19:06
#24
Cool! Gonna start your own grow log for this project?
Wed, 11/19/2008 - 20:27
#25
Wouldn't want to horn in on your experiment but might be a help now and then, mostly on things NOT to do.
We've already added 3 tomatoes from the seeds we took out of a supermarket tomato last week. Some were 3" long with leaves, sitting inside a damp paper towel inside a baggie on top of the 'fridge to stay warm. We're putting about 20 on death row. Can't use that many...
Never used rapid rooters but they say to put them in 1/4" of nutrient, which I did. They are soaked almost to the point of dripping. Is that normal? Seems way too wet to germinate or even keep our tomato seedlings alive. Think I'm going to take them out of the water for the night to dry out unless I hear something different.
I should erase all that but I'll admit just how dense I can be... The rapid rooter tray has individual spaces for each... uh, rapid rooter. Putting a dry RR in it's own tray with a little water would be a good thing. Putting a few in a huge tray isn't. DUH!
Wed, 11/19/2008 - 21:41
#26
Um, not sure.
Seeds need to soak up water at the first stage of germination - if you want them to germinate faster, before planting in soil, you soak them for a few to 24 hours first. If you're putting them in something sopping wet, like an AG pod or these rapid rooters dripping water, that would be redundant. But once roots are formed, they need air as well as moisture. But you don't want them to become dry. So - somewhere in between?
But yeah, this would be better as your own grow log. Not closely related to what I'm trying with the outriders.
Thu, 11/20/2008 - 00:16
#27
I don't want to intrude in your experiment, you are doing great without my bumbling. If something spectacular or disasterous happens to mine I may chime in, otherwise I'm tickled to sit back and watch yours grow, it's a great learning experience for me.
Sat, 11/22/2008 - 16:13
#28
How're your outriders doing?
My choi (thank you!) is showing, one just breaking the surface and the other about to come out in full glory. No red curl showing, though.
The tray has been augmented, I added six pepper cuttings to clone and filled the tray with hydroton rocks, it helped the moisture level a lot.
Question if you don't mind - I've had great luck by just sticking cuttings in a plain glass of water next to the AGs and forgetting about them. Rapid Rooter' instructions say to keep a fluourescent light on clones 24 hours a day until roots show so I moved a full spectrum floor lamp from the bottom of the tomatoes to hovering over the chiles. Would being on the fringe of the light hurt the lettuce's germination?
Sat, 11/22/2008 - 17:02
#29
Congrats on the toy choi! My red curl lettuce was planted 2 days before yours, I think, and just sprouted maybe yesterday, maybe the day before. The bimitas lettuce hasn't sprouted at all... I lifted that one out of the nutrient solution, thinking perhaps they'd like life slightly drier for sprouting. The new AG peat pods get really soggy. But, 5 days for lettuce? Maybe it's not going to germinate.
I don't think light will bother the lettuce germination. The AG lettuce pods sprout under light.
Sun, 11/23/2008 - 20:02
#30
week 3 : Not terribly impressed with progress. The amaranth continues to go absolutely nowhere - 3 weeks old and no true leaves yet. The fragrant choi and komatsuna are growing, slowly... It got suddenly very cold this week, and space opened up by my Deluxe, so moved them and their cheap grow light next to the Deluxe, where it's warmer. Maybe they'll grow better there...
week 1: It'll be 1 week tomorrow for the Korean red curl and bimitas lettuces. The red curl has sprouted well enough, but bimitas still a no-show. Sorry, dunno why I forgot about the macro setting on the camera today. 
Anyway, so far, this experiment isn't going terribly well. But, continuing...
Week 0: Planting day!
Planted 1 pod each Asia Red amaranth, Fragrant Choi lettuce, and Kojisan and Senposai varieties of komatsuna. (Looks like my mesclun pods in the pro100 have a bit of komatsuna too. Yum.) Komatsuna tastes like mild horseradish, though the senposai is supposed to be a cross with cabbage. Kewl. Fragrant Choi is supposed to smell like jasmine. I have no idea what amaranth tastes like, but it's edible and looks as gaudy as my coleus.
The seeds (these links go to EvergreenSeeds.com):
The original intent was to start these in the pro100, but the seeds got delayed a couple weeks. Then I figured I'd use a Park Starts block, but eh. The Deluxe came with a new-style Master Gardener kit, with the new biological-laced spongy peat moss plugs. So using those, plugged into hydroton grow rocks. Stacking plastic containers. I used a soldering gun to drill holes in the top container and stick the labels on flap-style.
This is just for sprouting. When they're established, probably only one or two pods can go in that little container.
For nutrients, used the same mix I'd whipped up for the Park Starts block on the other side - Flora series, 1/8 teaspoon each (~0.6 ml) micro / grow / bloom in a half gallon (2 liters).
Wish me luck!
Oh, and if Ann is reading this - please let me know if you see anything wrong with my approximation of your scheme!
Edit: added pix/links to the seeds.